Weak input-level on BIAS Amp 2 - direct comparison with version 1
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Hey guys. Can someone please verify this behavior?
- Add a test-tone plugin to your DAW and route it to a track with BIAS Amp 1 in the signal path, behind the test-tone.
- Choose a unchanged default amp.
- Max out bot levels at the left and right of the bottom in Bias Amp.
Adjust the test-tone now, so the input-level-meter reaches the red area for comparison reasons.
Make a screenshot of the test-tone, hitting the level-meters in BIAS Amp 1.- Deactivate Amp 1 and add BIAS Amp 2 to the same track, choose the same unchanged default amp.
- Max out bot levels at the left and right of the bottom in Bias Amp 2, too.
Make a screenshot of BIAS Amp 2 showing the level-meters.
Here are my findings, which implicate, that the input signal is relatively low in the newer BIAS Amp 2, which leads to a thinner and weaker tone with less breakup and distortion. When playing passive guitars and basses and using a audio-interface with a fixed level (as I do) you may find most default tones unsatisfying, except the insane ones, which may be less harsh and fizzy.
Both versions of BIAS Amp are latest (2.0.1 (724)) and on Mac within Reaper.
Please take a look at my notes in the screenshots showing the levels and test it by yourself…
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Same can be found on Insane amps like the "Power Place".
Unfortunately this leads to a tone-gap (caused by the lack of input-signal) and a significant gap in volume (summary of all gain-stages which leads to the output-level).
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I am the only one, suffering from comparatively weak input-levels on passive instruments?
The input-level is one of the most important parts in the signal chain. -
Not having some sort of reset to unity action makes this kind of thing really hard to test for me
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@pipelineaudio said in Weak input-level on BIAS Amp 2 - direct comparison with version 1:
Not having some sort of reset to unity action makes this kind of thing really hard to test for me
Do you mean, that you don't have the amp defaults on v1 or v2 anymore?
I have uploaded all defaults to the Tonecloud. You can find them by searching for "default" or "v1.x".
The amp defaults should be basically the same presets, on both versions. -
It may be an issue in stand alone or the head... but FWIW in a DAW and on many interfaces you have lots of opportunities to bring the level up. My interface has a handy gain knob at the input and I always have several plugins in front of Bias as well as the DAW/Hosts input level control.
They might want to go ahead and address this early (someone should enter a ticket :wink: ) though and see if they can add more range and add some boost at the input. I am starting to get some of my presets dialed in with the current settings.
FWIW, I am not seeing it but like I said, I have a bunch of stuff in front and I am not A/Bing back and forth. I have more problems with output levels than anything in Bias, TBH. I am constantly trying to track down why some tonecloud stuff is so loud and others so soft. Ditto with IRs etc. Fiddling with all the post levels fixes it eventually but Bias is definitely the most difficult amp sim I have to get a consistently pleasant volume level.
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@elric I had opened a ticket on Monday, but did not heard anything from Joe or Felix, yet.
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@elric said in Weak input-level on BIAS Amp 2 - direct comparison with version 1:
I am constantly trying to track down why some tonecloud stuff is so loud and others so soft. Ditto with IRs etc.
I assume most of the inconsistencies with volume in the user presets on the tonecloud is from users adjusting the preset's levels throughout the components of the preset, instead of adjusting the volume in the environment their working in. For example, adjusting output volume in bias components instead of using a fader in the DAW channel for volume or something to that effect...or working in standalone and adjusting volume in bias components instead of their computer/interface/monitors. That's my thinking...
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@sascha-ballweg I mean double clicking the input or output and getting back to unity gain, for example.
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@elric said in Weak input-level on BIAS Amp 2 - direct comparison with version 1:
They might want to go ahead and address this early (someone should enter a ticket ) though and see if they can add more range and add some boost at the input. I am starting to get some of my presets dialed in with the current settings.
Nothing more or less. A generally wider range would be perfect ;)
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Can someone compare the input-levels, please?
I got an answer from PG which seems some kind of weird, when I take a look at my findings (and trusting my ears, which recognise the weaker input)We fed BIAS Amp 1&2 with a 1k test tone to same audio interface/amp model/gain stage in Logic Pro and the results are quite similar. Please note that the DSP engine and the loudness meter between each version might be a bit different.
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reset to defaults and get screenshots of the output levels post-VST. They are kinda correct really; the levels shown in the plugin don't really tell you anything useful, since they could be using different scales. The only way to know for sure is to capture the output of the plugins and compare that. send the signal into two channels, one with each plugin version, and observe the DAW mixer levels side-by-side. Unlock the signal chain and remove components starting from the cab sim until you can find exactly where the difference is being introduced -- it could always just be a result of the rolloff present in the default cab sim settings compared to BA1, or something similar in any of the other modules.
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@ash-wolford sounds solid, I will give it a try and get back...
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Hm. Interesting...
Version 1 (channel 1 / top) vs. Version 2Picture (1) Default settings "Acoustic Sim".
Picture (2) same settings "Acoustic Sim" but now with a complete empty signal-chain (all devices removed from preamp to amp-match).
Please take a look at the channel volume on track 1 and compare to track 2. You will recognize a significant weaker input and output in BIAS Amp 2 in any case. Unfortunately the difference is not just a value, but weakens the tone, especially at crunch-sounds!
The overall loss of output for Amp 2 is 13.6 db at the default, and 12.2 at the empty signal chain.
I am not willing to find out from which part of the signal-chain the 1.1 db difference comes from, because of the high overall loss of signal. -
it's entirely possible that they adjusted the input scaling/ceiling for some purpose or another. until they come forward with a statement/update of some kind, increasing the level before the signal reaches the VST ought to be enough to equalize it.
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Of cause, putting some sort of VST (preferable flat EQ with a gain boost) in front of BIAS is the way to go until a clarification but that's surely not on the wishlist of BIAS Head/Rack hardware owners ;)
Are you with me, that their statement is some kind of weird, regarding the difference of 12-13 db. Or do you see a way Logic Pro could handle the input automaticly without touching it?
We fed BIAS Amp 1&2 with a 1k test tone to same audio interface/amp model/gain stage in Logic Pro and the results are quite similar. Please note that the DSP engine and the loudness meter between each version might be a bit different.
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SOmeone please send me an RPP, and we will go over this with the powers that be on our end!
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thank you!
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Ok, so this isn't the same issue as when people were saying that render is quieter than live right? I just did three tests. Live readings, realtime bounce and offline bounce. All three gave me the same levels.
I like that you seriously removed all the variables from this RPP!
As to the issue of them sounding different, given the same input level, its so hard to tell what it is since, again we have no (&^&^(&*& idea where unity gain is. Seriously. I'd love some marks or notches or something to tell us where zero is
