Fortin VST “hardness”

  • A2

    I’ve seen two videos for the Fortin plugin coming up demonstrating something I’ve been talking about in amp sims for a long time. There’s a “hardness” (and you know ho much I hate the subjective terms,but) and treble there that is extremely hard, if not impossible to get in existing ampmsims, but easy to get in the real world or thru a mic, from the most boutique amp to even the cheapest pos. I know it’s hard to work from such a lack of an objective description, but s soon as I get my hands on this, I should be able to test and see exactly what the difference is

  • Have you downloaded the trial yet?

  • A2

    I did, but I havent been able to get it to run yet, it didn't like my iLok. I have a message into their support

  • @pipelineaudio There's definitely something in the high-end that amp sims typically struggle with. I assume it has to do with the actual frequency response of the cabinets. I usually have to do quite a bit of filtering, as well as other tricks to get high end to sit properly.

  • A2

    Theoretically, the highs shouldn't be too difficult with impulsing, and my own testing with IRs of my own WAY back in the acoustic mirror days (when there weren't really plugin amp sims to speak of aside from simulanalog) had me testing with real heads and preamps, and I never had this problem. I could sure see the "fizz" as being a problem in impulses, as they are made to hype to sell, and at first glance, the very type of micing that will cause fizz is exactly what sells you on the hype side before you try and use it in a mix

  • I never understood, why most IRs have so much high-end in a frequency range which should not be delivered by a classic guitar-cab at all. I referre especially at the range above 7.000 Hz.

  • A2

    Its there in real life, its just low, which leads to people cranking it.

  • With regard to high frequency stuff; I've never understood why some people think a micced guitar cab has no highs above 5K or so. (I am not saying anyone here feels that but I am speaking in general as a lot of people seem to express this view in guitar gear head circles).

    The 'roll off of highs' people often talk about from a guitar cab refers to the drop in measured magnitude of frequencies above that band as frequency increases. It does not mean there are no high frequencies. It just means the magnitude of the signal at say, 7K is lower than the magnitude of the signal at say, 1K due to the speaker/cab characteristics. That stuff is still there and your ear is definitely noticing it and sensitive to what the spectrum is of the signal.

    Also another thing that is easy to forget: There is also the rest of the signal chain: mics, preamps, room, mic position, not to mention distortion in the actual speaker, the mic or preamp which by definition will add high end (because that is what clipping does).

    So, anyway, IMHO the high end response of an amp/cab is very key in defining the distortion characteristic of a signal chain. It is like a spice, it is not the majority of the ingredients but what is present drastically affects the overall flavor to the point of defining the dish.

    Expecting it not to be there does not make any sense to me and there are some very bright signal chains IRL. A lot of it is going to get rolled off by an EQ via the sound guy/producer if it is over the top. I think a lot players just expect their isolated guitar to sound like a guitar in a mix on an album or something.

    Anyway, for the Fortin sim, roll down the presence and add in a 121 mic and move the 57 off the center. I think this is a great sim but it does not have any super special mojo for me; in other words it is not doing something for me some of the other high quality plugins can't do. It is also not very versatile. The simplicity can be nice and what is there is very nice. It is kind of like the PRS plugin suite that was recently released just nowhere near as versatile.... A small tight toolset that is simple to use.

    I'm not hearing the "hardness" thing pa is talking about, I dunno, maybe that high response may be the 'key' for you though... as noted distortion == high harmonics. I guess you could amp match it in Bias 2 for fun to see if it is a frequency response thing.

  • A2

    We did some experiments early on with aliasing effects as well as anti aliasing filters causing some of this in compressors and amp sims, not sure if that's the case here.

    But yeah, weird what people think the bandwidth of guitar cabs are. A lot of these preamps have eqs at 6.1k and 10 k for a reason! A lot of it is probably that more modern "pushed mids" kind of guitar sound that was adopted in order to make albums louder during the volume wars

  • I've heard the Fortin in Ola's vid, and I didn't like the compression. It's like a cat hacking, and I don't want my palm muting to sound like a china. I also didn't like the high treble, which sounds like metal filings vibrating in a metal pan, say, but not that even.

    That is the first time I've heard guitars referenced in the loudness wars. I like a loud production I think, as I don't have to turn it up much, but if I do it's FUCKING loud, yet clear in the examples I'm thinking of. ((I think a loud production in Art Music is not done, as I imagine it would kill the dynamics of the ensemble/orchestra.))