Anything above 96khz and loss of distortion and tone



  • I know some of you saw where there was this issue for some, but those never directly addressed it as a sample rate issue possibly.

    I can't run bias amp 2 at any sample rate higher than 96khz without distortion loss and an overall tinny/muffled tone, that has nothing to do with mic placement as was noticed by some. It directly happens when switching between anything up to 96khz and anything above that (like say 192khz).

    I make sure that both the sample rate and buffer size are "matched" (192khz with 192 buffer size). This isn't a buffer issue as I've tried VERY large buffers and VERY small buffers and it only caused "pop/click" glitches. I know that the USB driver for my Focusrite 2i2 2nd gen is up to date, and so is BA2. Both are set at the same rates and such.

    This is on windows 10 with latest updates on a 64bit machine with 8 gigs of ram (more than enough). USB 2 input on front header, and the USB 3 front header as well... both do it. using included cable.

    I can get 192hz at 24-bit depth and a buffer of 192 as well in Reaper and all the plugins work fine, but load up either standalone or plugin version of BA2 aaaand it happens anyway.

    So something with the sample rate in BA2 is messed up for anything higher than 96khz.

    Anyone able to find a workaround or fix for this atm?


  • A2

    Are you recording in 192khz audio? Or are you using previously recorded files and changing the project sample rate in reaper to 192?

    Not that they should be any different in function, but it might point to the cause



  • I'm using it as a live function mostly atm. (bedroom practice) I know that it doesn't matter much to most, but for me, I purchased the Scarlet 2i2 and bias amp 2 because of the 96k and above functionality, most especially the 192k.

    No audio files are being used as it's a live (Bedroom) situation.



  • Just out of curiosity but what kind of hardware do you have that allows you 96kHz sampling rate? I run BIAS FX on fairly modern (year old or so) ThinkPad and I can barely get 44.1kHz rate with 512 block size using ASIO driver that came with Presonus Audiobox. Anything lower than 512 and crackling appears. 44kHz/512 combination results in about 11ms latency - it is not great - definitely gives you certain "spongy" feel but you can live with it.


  • A2

    I did a video a ways back showing what appeared to be some pretty severe aliasing in bias.

    We then went on to do some experiments with oversampling on some basic waveshaping distortion algos, and surprise surprise, we found that it took away a lot of the agression when we lost the aliasing "problem". If I had to describe it, it would make something like bias sound like line 6, who do some amazing anti-aliasing work, but its also kind of a wet blanket kind of effect

    You never know quite what you are going to get

    It also depends whether or not whoever makes the plugin really allows it to act different at higher sample rates. Many VST EQ's for example aren't even decramped if you oversample them, so I wouldn't be surprised if bias is any different or not.

    @tom_niesytto something appears to be wrong, a modern cpu should handle lower buffer sizes pretty well. Which exact audiobox do you have?

    Also its important to realize that reported latency to the drivers is a WAY different beast than the actual round trip latency. The newer Presonus USB drivers have an actual round trip latency at 512 samples of 32 miliseconds! If you actually were getting 11 miliseconds, a bit over 7 out of 10 people wouldn't even notice the latency at all

    I made a chart here to compare RTL of many driver families
    http://kailuamusicschool.com/tech/round-trip-latency-roundup/



  • @pipelineaudio said in [

    @tom_niesytto something appears to be wrong, a modern cpu should handle lower buffer sizes pretty well. Which exact audiobox do you have?

    Also its important to realize that reported latency to the drivers is a WAY different beast than the actual round trip latency. The newer Presonus USB drivers have an actual round trip latency at 512 samples of 32 miliseconds! If you actually were getting 11 miliseconds, a bit over 7 out of 10 people wouldn't even notice the latency at all

    I made a chart here to compare RTL of many driver families
    http://kailuamusicschool.com/tech/round-trip-latency-roundup/

    Well I admit - it is ANCIENT - 15yo - maybe?. I update firmware but that still does not help.
    I have 2.7GhHz 8-core CPU with 32GB RAM and I run 64bit Win-10. However I opted for 32bit Tracktion installation because that way I could reuse some of the old 32 bit plugins I had from previous version of Tracktion. But if 32/64 bit is the issue here I can install 64 bit BIAS FX and see if it makes a difference - not sure though if I will be able to load 64bit plugin in 32bit Tracktion.
    As for noticing it.... it feel like lack of "directness" or a "spongy" feel. Older digital mFX sometimes have it. It is somewhat annoying because it does mess your sense of timing that is why I want the reported driver latency to < 7ms.


  • A2

    Unless something is drastically wrong with Traktion, 32/64 bit shouldn't matter to your latency, though the fact that you seem to be saying that 64 bit traktion cant run 32 bit plugins does tell me there is something drastically wrong with it, so there's that...

    At 32 miliseconds latency, yeah! You are going to feel it. You are past the time zone of the Haas Effect and running into the actual times that people perceive as doubling

    For most people, myself included, I'm not magic, and maybe people could even say I'm insensitive, but 13 miliseconds is the golden threshold. No matter how much the Marketing Machine and their drones say, that is generally around where a single, DISCRETE signal, will appear instaneous (yes this all goes out the window if there is also a direct path to the ear of the original sound, but even then, say the sound of our picks acoustically hitting the strings, in general 13 ms is it)

    For the timing nuts, 13ms comes out to less than a 128th note at 120BPM



  • @pipelineaudio said in Anything above 96khz and loss of distortion and tone:

    Unless something is drastically wrong with Traktion, 32/64 bit shouldn't matter to your latency, though the fact that you seem to be saying that 64 bit traktion cant run 32 bit plugins does tell me there is something drastically wrong with it, so there's that...

    Maybe I should recheck it. My initial assessment might have been wrong and I might have tried to run IK Multimedia plugins at that point - Amplitube or SmpleTank and those were always problematic with Tracktion - at least for me.

    Do you have any recommendation for fast audio interface at say $250 or less? I have USB 3.0 on this laptop. Will not record more than 2 tracks at a time - I dabble with jazz on amateur level and try to record myself on a regular basis when working on tunes. And sometimes do some original stuff - so really a bedroom type of a setup - 2x2 is enough. Thanks for all the info!


  • A2

    At 250, you can get nearly the fastest there is, the Zoom UAC-2

    Hoping to hear back from @Joe-Kuo whether the 99$ Zoom U-24 or the 60 dollar U-22 are anywhere near as fast. The slightly slower Audient ID4 at 200$ is also in that price range, and there is a lot of hype around that product (which usually leads me to dismiss it as marketing nonsense, but the RTL numbers on it are actually great!)

    In addition to the round trip latency chart I linked above, I'm also working on a Mother of all Projects page documenting these types of things for live use with a DAW. In the components section I have a bit more about some of the available interfaces

    http://pipelineaudio.net/2018/05/08/bringing-the-studio-to-the-stage/



  • @pipelineaudio said in Anything above 96khz and loss of distortion and tone:

    At 250, you can get nearly the fastest there is, the Zoom UAC-2

    Thanks - I will check it out - I am big fan of Zoom product - had their G3 mfx and for the money it was excellent - best UI design for any mFX I have used. My current rig is all analog - except for delay/chorus that I keep on a looper. And I use their H2N recorder ALL the time for recording jams or sometimes jazz shows. The only issue I ever had with it was with the SD card - it is just good idea to reformat it now and - every few shows or so.
    Edit:
    Actually that U24 looks very cool - it has a mic stand holder and is iOS compatible - so if I ever wanted to try to simplify my rig to the point of bringing BIAS FX on iPad to the gig. So just mount U24 on note-stand and put iPad on it. Would have been perfect if it had XLR outs to go to PA.
    Edit2: I rechecked 64 bit Tracktion 7 - and no - all those legacy plugins that I have since Tracktion 4 do not load into 64 bit version. I like them and I am very used to many of them - reverb, compressor, final mix etc - I am not a recording buff - just worked out few trick on my own and I am happy with them. So I will stay on 32 bit version for a while - may see if WaveForm comes as 32 bit that can load those plugins.



  • @tom_niesytto I'm using a gaming grade pc from 2014 with a few upgrades from then. GTX 780 ti, on a UD5 board from Gigabyte with the i5 3570k 64bit at 4Ghz, 8G of DDR3 ram, and the focusrite 2i2 2nd gen with a krk rokit 6, windows 10 latest updates.

    and wow, 911: What's your emergency? MY THREAD JUST GOT HIJACKED! LMAO j/k but in all honesty anyone know of any fixes for this or if it's a thing for anyone else?



  • Well - I got U44 today - installed driver and I am very much underwhelmed so far.
    Quality of converters seems very good but it refuses to work correctly - even in the most basic settings.
    When you set it as interface in Mackie Tracktion you do not get any buffer size setting
    apart from 512 and the only thing you can manipulate is sampling rate but anything other
    that 44.1kHz causes Tracktion to start hogging 100% of CPU time on amp modelling plugins
    so basically freezes playback. And 44.1kHz and 512 buffer size is what I get from my 10+yo
    Presonus Audiobox. Yes I can clearly hear the difference in quality of converters but Audiobox
    set to 44.1kHz and 512 sample size WORKS - there are no "hiccups" on playback. Just latency.

    What is even worse is that U44 cannot even play MP3 using Win media player without constant
    (every 5 secs or so) hiccup - I do not understand that. I installed the driver - rebooted - disabled
    everything I could (cloud backup, Bluetooth etc) and it still does not work. Audiobox had zero
    problems playing MP3s correctly (with 40 other things running in the same time).

    Will try to talk to Zoom tech support.


  • A2

    Do other buffer sizes show up in other daws?



  • @pipelineaudio said in Anything above 96khz and loss of distortion and tone:

    Do other buffer sizes show up in other daws?

    I can get to other buffer sizes via control panel for U44 driver - not very easy to get to since I was not able to find standalone executable - but regardless... the issue is much much more fundamental - no matter what parameters I set for sampling rate and buffer size U44 cannot do simplest task like playing back MP3s. 44.1kHz and 512 buffer or any other frequency/buffer size up 96kHz with buffer 64 it has a hiccup every 5-10 secs (only slightly worse on more demanding settings). You can't get rid of it. I unplugged everything (every USB device) and tried every port (all of them are USB 3.0). The only related issue I have seen online suggested modifying BIOS to increase voltage applied to port. I am hoping ZOOM tech support can fix it because otherwise it seems like a nice piece of hardware - in between hiccups the tone and latency I get when using BIAS FX is really good. You can clearly hear how good the converters are.


  • A2

    I'm not thinking this is the interface making trouble here

    Did you try one of those DPC testers yet?

    Please try and run this when you aren't really using the computer. 10 or 15 minutes should do it

    http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon



  • @pipelineaudio I ran LatencyMon briefly (2 mins) and got first sth about system being able to handle real audio and then after 30 secs this:
    Your system seems to be having difficulty handling real-time audio and other tasks. You may experience drop outs, clicks or pops due to buffer underruns. One problem may be related to power management, disable CPU throttling settings in Control Panel and BIOS setup. Check for BIOS updates.

    Here are the stats:


    CONCLUSION


    Your system seems to be having difficulty handling real-time audio and other tasks. You may experience drop outs, clicks or pops due to buffer underruns. One problem may be related to power management, disable CPU throttling settings in Control Panel and BIOS setup. Check for BIOS updates.
    LatencyMon has been analyzing your system for 0:01:24 (h:mm:ss) on all processors.


    SYSTEM INFORMATION


    Computer name: LAPTOP-42QKPKLJ
    OS version: Windows 10 , 10.0, build: 16299 (x64)
    Hardware: 20EQS3B400, LENOVO
    CPU: GenuineIntel Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-6820HQ CPU @ 2.70GHz
    Logical processors: 8
    Processor groups: 1
    RAM: 32602 MB total


    CPU SPEED


    Reported CPU speed: 2712 MHz

    Note: reported execution times may be calculated based on a fixed reported CPU speed. Disable variable speed settings like Intel Speed Step and AMD Cool N Quiet in the BIOS setup for more accurate results.


    MEASURED INTERRUPT TO USER PROCESS LATENCIES


    The interrupt to process latency reflects the measured interval that a usermode process needed to respond to a hardware request from the moment the interrupt service routine started execution. This includes the scheduling and execution of a DPC routine, the signaling of an event and the waking up of a usermode thread from an idle wait state in response to that event.

    Highest measured interrupt to process latency (µs): 1228.649663
    Average measured interrupt to process latency (µs): 18.303464

    Highest measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs): 1185.227810
    Average measured interrupt to DPC latency (µs): 7.759171


    REPORTED ISRs


    Interrupt service routines are routines installed by the OS and device drivers that execute in response to a hardware interrupt signal.

    Highest ISR routine execution time (µs): 75.179941
    Driver with highest ISR routine execution time: HDAudBus.sys - High Definition Audio Bus Driver, Microsoft Corporation

    Highest reported total ISR routine time (%): 0.000188
    Driver with highest ISR total time: HDAudBus.sys - High Definition Audio Bus Driver, Microsoft Corporation

    Total time spent in ISRs (%) 0.000266

    ISR count (execution time <250 µs): 160
    ISR count (execution time 250-500 µs): 0
    ISR count (execution time 500-999 µs): 0
    ISR count (execution time 1000-1999 µs): 0
    ISR count (execution time 2000-3999 µs): 0
    ISR count (execution time >=4000 µs): 0


    REPORTED DPCs


    DPC routines are part of the interrupt servicing dispatch mechanism and disable the possibility for a process to utilize the CPU while it is interrupted until the DPC has finished execution.

    Highest DPC routine execution time (µs): 922.389749
    Driver with highest DPC routine execution time: ntoskrnl.exe - NT Kernel & System, Microsoft Corporation

    Highest reported total DPC routine time (%): 0.008806
    Driver with highest DPC total execution time: nvlddmkm.sys - NVIDIA Windows Kernel Mode Driver, Version 382.05 , NVIDIA Corporation

    Total time spent in DPCs (%) 0.060326

    DPC count (execution time <250 µs): 36127
    DPC count (execution time 250-500 µs): 0
    DPC count (execution time 500-999 µs): 36
    DPC count (execution time 1000-1999 µs): 0
    DPC count (execution time 2000-3999 µs): 0
    DPC count (execution time >=4000 µs): 0


    REPORTED HARD PAGEFAULTS


    Hard pagefaults are events that get triggered by making use of virtual memory that is not resident in RAM but backed by a memory mapped file on disk. The process of resolving the hard pagefault requires reading in the memory from disk while the process is interrupted and blocked from execution.

    NOTE: some processes were hit by hard pagefaults. If these were programs producing audio, they are likely to interrupt the audio stream resulting in dropouts, clicks and pops. Check the Processes tab to see which programs were hit.

    Process with highest pagefault count: ccsvchst.exe

    Total number of hard pagefaults 227
    Hard pagefault count of hardest hit process: 146
    Number of processes hit: 6


    PER CPU DATA


    CPU 0 Interrupt cycle time (s): 2.085272
    CPU 0 ISR highest execution time (µs): 75.179941
    CPU 0 ISR total execution time (s): 0.001786
    CPU 0 ISR count: 160
    CPU 0 DPC highest execution time (µs): 426.325959
    CPU 0 DPC total execution time (s): 0.281424
    CPU 0 DPC count: 28643


    CPU 1 Interrupt cycle time (s): 0.651815
    CPU 1 ISR highest execution time (µs): 0.0
    CPU 1 ISR total execution time (s): 0.0
    CPU 1 ISR count: 0
    CPU 1 DPC highest execution time (µs): 227.99410
    CPU 1 DPC total execution time (s): 0.009004
    CPU 1 DPC count: 612


    CPU 2 Interrupt cycle time (s): 0.690285
    CPU 2 ISR highest execution time (µs): 0.0
    CPU 2 ISR total execution time (s): 0.0
    CPU 2 ISR count: 0
    CPU 2 DPC highest execution time (µs): 135.105826
    CPU 2 DPC total execution time (s): 0.010984
    CPU 2 DPC count: 875


    CPU 3 Interrupt cycle time (s): 0.544750
    CPU 3 ISR highest execution time (µs): 0.0
    CPU 3 ISR total execution time (s): 0.0
    CPU 3 ISR count: 0
    CPU 3 DPC highest execution time (µs): 110.738201
    CPU 3 DPC total execution time (s): 0.003277
    CPU 3 DPC count: 312


    CPU 4 Interrupt cycle time (s): 0.696971
    CPU 4 ISR highest execution time (µs): 0.0
    CPU 4 ISR total execution time (s): 0.0
    CPU 4 ISR count: 0
    CPU 4 DPC highest execution time (µs): 922.389749
    CPU 4 DPC total execution time (s): 0.013495
    CPU 4 DPC count: 896


    CPU 5 Interrupt cycle time (s): 1.305755
    CPU 5 ISR highest execution time (µs): 0.0
    CPU 5 ISR total execution time (s): 0.0
    CPU 5 ISR count: 0
    CPU 5 DPC highest execution time (µs): 389.302360
    CPU 5 DPC total execution time (s): 0.053063
    CPU 5 DPC count: 2787


    CPU 6 Interrupt cycle time (s): 0.679081
    CPU 6 ISR highest execution time (µs): 0.0
    CPU 6 ISR total execution time (s): 0.0
    CPU 6 ISR count: 0
    CPU 6 DPC highest execution time (µs): 831.078909
    CPU 6 DPC total execution time (s): 0.011296
    CPU 6 DPC count: 668


    CPU 7 Interrupt cycle time (s): 0.623822
    CPU 7 ISR highest execution time (µs): 0.0
    CPU 7 ISR total execution time (s): 0.0
    CPU 7 ISR count: 0
    CPU 7 DPC highest execution time (µs): 808.200959
    CPU 7 DPC total execution time (s): 0.023073
    CPU 7 DPC count: 1370



  • A2

    Ahhh good info!!! Ok, so for my laptop, I am using an app called Power Plan Switcher, though you can do this with the stock windows stuff. For running my guitar thru I made a plan called live, where cpu minimum and cpu maximum are both set to 100%, no speed stepping....Also, I turned off USB polling on that plan USB Selected Suspend both set to off

    Again though, I'd make sure to test in another DAW as well



  • @pipelineaudio
    Ran it again this time for 17 mins. Same type of results:
    Your system appears to be having trouble handling real-time audio and other tasks. You are likely to experience buffer underruns appearing as drop outs, clicks or pops. One or more DPC routines that belong to a driver running in your system appear to be executing for too long. At least one detected problem appears to be network related. In case you are using a WLAN adapter, try disabling it to get better results. One problem may be related to power management, disable CPU throttling settings in Control Panel and BIOS setup. Check for BIOS updates.

    BTW - I checked Task Manager - all the processes running - for CPU throttling and it is uniformly disabled. So I guess that part does not apply.


  • A2

    So you turned off speed stepping in power options and set both min and max to 100? I think that latencymon should have a tab that shows you which drivers are taking massive DPC hits. Wifi and ethernet drivers can often do it, but not so much with modern drivers. I wouldnt go turning a bunch of stuff off at once, just one at a time. If its not telling you any of the specific processes that are making high dpc hits, theres the more in depth older one we used to use here:

    https://www.thesycon.de/eng/latency_check.shtml



  • @pipelineaudio said in Anything above 96khz and loss of distortion and tone:

    So you turned off speed stepping in power options and set both min and max to 100? I think that latencymon should have a tab that shows you which drivers are taking massive DPC hits. Wifi and ethernet drivers can often do it, but not so much with modern drivers. I wouldnt go turning a bunch of stuff off at once, just one at a time. If its not telling you any of the specific processes that are making high dpc hits, theres the more in depth older one we used to use here:

    https://www.thesycon.de/eng/latency_check.shtml

    Thanks man - great help - will study it slowly - as far as speed stepping or min/max CPU I do not see that option anywhere. May be a longer task to get it to work.
    Btw - disabled all networking - no improvement either in U44 performance or LatencyMon stats.